Episode 38: Has Social Media Ruined Travel? With JoAnna Haugen & B.A. Van Sise

Angie Orth:

Social media, some love it, some love to hate it. When it comes to travel, social media has allowed us to see more of the world. We can explore places we otherwise never would've known existed, and it's a way to document and remember those experiences.

But on the flip side, communities that are home to Instagram hotspots are facing the repercussions of overtourism; both environmental degradation and safety issues have become commonplace. I'm speaking to industry professionals to explore how the social media age has shaped tourism for better and for worse.

First up, we have JoAnna Haugen. She's a writer, speaker, and an influential advocate for sustainable and responsible travel. Now, the title of this episode is, Has Social Media Ruined Travel? Do you think it has?

JoAnna Haugen:

We're always aware of the fact that we might be sharing this, that we might want to share this, that we need to see where everybody else is or what they're doing. That tells me that social media has ruined travel in a way because it really has taken out the very raw experience of curiosity, awe, humility, and just realness of being in a place for the first time—seeing something new, tasting new flavors, feeling a different kind of ground beneath you, hearing a different language. We're so caught up with how we're going to capture a two-dimensional image of this and share it later.

Angie:

Then, we'll hear from B.A. Van Sise. He's an accomplished traveler, a world-renowned photographer, and one of my favorite travel writers. B.A., has social media ruined travel?

B.A. Van Sise:

I don't think it has, no. I'm generally a bit negative on social media, but I don't think that it really has ruined travel. I think that it's changed the way people travel.

Angie:

Today, it's time to reflect on how we're using the tool of social media in our travels. Let's buckle up and see where the conversation takes us.

JoAnna, I am so excited to have you on the podcast today because you have a wealth of experience. You've been a writer and editor, a speaker, a consultant, and more. What inspired you to become an advocate for sustainable and responsible travel?

JoAnna:

I've been working in the travel and tourism industry for my entire career, so for more than 15 years now. I've been working both on the consumer-facing side, as well as the industry. In all the positions I've had, I've been working in different kinds of communication. So, all the work that I've done up to this point really comes down to this idea that if we can tell honest, true, responsible stories about travel, travel experiences, and the places that we go, then we actually create the ecosystem for a more sustainable tourism industry, and quite frankly, better experiences for travelers and the people who live in the communities where we visit.

Angie:

We're talking about sustainability and how we travel more responsibly, and I think we probably can't talk about that without discussing social media and its effects on travel in general. So, is there a destination that comes to mind where you've seen a real change since the dawn of the social media age?

JoAnna:

In 2009, I actually attended Burning Man, and attending Burning Man was something that changed my life because I went for a week by myself. I didn't know anybody, was completely disconnected from the world, there was no cell phone service. There was nothing connecting Burning Man to the greater world. Of course, today as we speak, there are some major issues going on with Burning Man in terms of flooding and people who are struggling to leave Black Rock City. But I just checked the hashtag Burning Man 2023 on Instagram before our conversation today, and I noticed there are almost 13,000 posts, and there are almost 2 million posts if you look at hashtag Burning Man.

In 2009, I remember being completely untethered, not knowing what was going on in the real world, definitely not “doing it for the gram,” and just really being present in the moment. I feel like this is a great example of how we've given ourselves over to social media when we travel because we are thinking about what is this going to look like when I share it with somebody else? Or wait, should I pause for a moment and take a picture of this? Or what is the perfect angle that I need to stand at so that it looks great when I post it on social media? I actually have not been back to Burning Man since 2009, but I have watched it evolve on social media and it doesn't look like it's the same kind of experience that I had simply because social media is so present in this space.

Angie:

Do you feel like there's not much context in our photos and our videos? And that this curated image that we're putting out to the world when we travel is not actually helping people to travel because they're not getting the full context of the destination?

JoAnna:

A lot of that has to do with the way that we consume media, right? We're just scrolling through image after image, video after video. If we spend a second or 2, that is not nearly enough time for any of us to take in any sort of cultural or historical context.

Travelers don't necessarily know what they don't know, and we can't fault anybody for not being aware of something that they don't know about. Let's be real, we are dealing with some very big issues in the world right now. We can't actually escape the real world when we travel. So, just pretending these things don't exist when we travel and when we share travel through our social media is not only dishonest, but it can actually cause harm to the places that we visit and the people that we encounter in some ways. So, that context is very important and we do need to do a better job of providing that when we share on social media.

Angie:

Folks don't necessarily understand that you're walking to this beautiful viewpoint and it may not be safe. Horseshoe Bend in Arizona is an example because it has a lot of photo-related incidents where people are slipping and falling to their deaths. They get there and are like “It’s a little more complicated than I thought, but I'm going to do it even if I'm not prepared, even if I don't have the right footwear.” In that situation, I think context would help a lot in keeping people safe. But as travelers, it's partially our responsibility to figure that out before and not plan a whole itinerary based on Instagram posts, right?

JoAnna:

Absolutely, the responsibility goes both ways. Whoever is posting those kinds of photos needs to do more than just show their feet dangling off the edge of Horseshoe Bend.

According to the Journal of Travel Medicine, between 2008 and 2021, 379 people around the world died by taking selfies. Just posting those pretty photos certainly doesn't set up the conditions for success for somebody who might just be seeking that one great photo.

Angie:

It goes back to that personal responsibility of if you're leaving your home, you need to prepare and take care of yourself.

I want to talk about tourism in very popular destinations. We know tourism is the lifeblood of so many destinations. It powers whole economies. How as travelers, and how as destinations do we decide when enough is enough?

JoAnna:

We actually are seeing an uptick of a lot of popular destinations coming up with strategies to try to manage that huge influx of crowds. Venice has day tax, Bhutan has a daily fee for people who travel to Bhutan, Machu Picchu has a limit on the number of people who can visit at a time. I just recently saw that the Acropolis has done something like this as well. Some destinations are starting to fine people for taking selfies in places that are overcrowded.

The places where people travel are also places where people live, where people are trying to go to work, where people are trying to function. When people are using these same places as their backdrops and disrupting daily life, then that's a huge problem. We really need to do a much better job listening to both the local authorities and local residents who are saying, “Please don't do this. Please don't stay here. Please don't come. Please act this way. Please respect our cultures,” and realize that we have that responsibility to act with integrity, to act with respect, and to realize that we are a guest in somebody's home. Sometimes we just shouldn't be in some places and we need to be OK with that. No is a complete sentence, and I don't think travelers like to hear that, but I think we need to start doing a better job of hearing that.

Angie:

Let's talk about geotagging. For our listeners who don't know what it is, can you explain that and why it might be creating issues for certain destinations?

JoAnna:

Geotagging is identifying the geographic location of an image. The intention behind it is just to provide information—this is where this photo was taken. However, it has had some unintended consequences. For example, it's resulted in increased vehicle and foot traffic, such as at Horseshoe Bend as you noted earlier. People want to visit to see that same place and take that same photo, but they've been unprepared to actually visit those areas with a lack of equipment or knowledge of what that experience is going to be like. There has been a lot of environmental degradation as a result of this because sometimes those places that have been geotagged have been overrun or over visited; people are going off trail. In some cases, there's been an encroachment on wildlife and an increase in poaching when people know where to find certain endangered species. Quite frankly, geotags truly are just a pin in a map and they don't provide context. How steep is the trail to this place? Is it even on a trail? Is it marked to get to this place? It provides information, but not really enough information.

Angie:

You hear a lot in the Instagram world about gatekeeping and how if you don't geotag, then you're being a jerk because you're not allowing other people to know. You're kind of keeping it for yourself. I guess it's a double-edged sword. You want people to experience what you do because you're not keeping it to yourself, but you also want to keep destinations safe, healthy, and thriving.

JoAnna:

Yeah, gatekeeping is an ongoing challenge when it comes to geotagging, especially because gatekeeping often comes with some racial and socioeconomic undertones about who is and is not prepared, or who is and is not welcome. It really surfaces the question of who gets to decide who has the right to visit a place.

Angie:

There is a waterfall in California where the locals are experiencing some crowd control issues because a top influencer on TikTok posted, and now it's severely overcrowded. Park rangers are trying to encourage people not to come because there are long lines and it's a strenuous hike, but the more photos end up posted, the more people want to come, the more crowded it gets, and the more damage is done to the location.

What advice would you give somebody who might be planning a trip right now? Maybe they're being influenced online by some kind of popular spot. Maybe they're starting to question if it's worth it.

JoAnna:

When it comes to seeing a popular destination like a waterfall—which is not going to go anywhere this season, or next year, or the year after—put a pin in it for yourself. If you really are set on visiting that waterfall, learn about it, understand what the challenges are to visiting it, listen to what local authorities and residents are saying about how to visit responsibly, and then let all the hype die down and go when it's not as crowded in the off-season next year or at another time when it's not being over visited, overrun, and overwhelming the residents. Make a choice of whether your presence there is actually harming or benefiting the local community. You might need to be content looking at the photos, appreciating the beauty of the place, and realizing that not every place needs to have you visit.

Angie:

As tourists, how do we reclaim travel as an experience to enjoy rather than one to document? How do we go back in time and just enjoy travel for what it is?

JoAnna:

I think we need to step back and ask, “Why do we want to go to a place? Why do we want to have that experience?” Not just, “What am I going to do while I'm there?” but “How I'm going to engage in that experience?” as well. Maybe that means taking a cooking class and putting the phone to the side, or maybe that means participating in some sort of restoration project versus just taking beautiful photos while kayaking on the water. Really rethinking our purpose of travel can help us reclaim it as an experience, rather than as something that we just tick off a list. And as it relates to social media, I like to challenge people and ask, “If you couldn't document it and share it on social media, would you still do it?” Because I think that a lot of people are surprised to realize that the answer to that might be, well, maybe not.

Angie:

I think it's very smart to question the way that we travel, especially in light of how we share it with other people and what we get out of that experience. Are there any trends that are emerging that might take the pressure off some of these over-touristed places?

JoAnna:

There is a small island off of Finland. People are very specifically being asked to stay off their phones when they visit this Finnish island. Of course, when we remove those temptations, then that might push us into that area where we are thinking more intentionally about why are we here, why we’re traveling. How can we have more intentional and purposeful experiences without being so focused on how we're going to share this with other people?

Angie:

If you've ever been to a place like Horseshoe Bend or the Mona Lisa, and it's just a sea of people taking photos with iPads and phones, it just kind of takes you out of the moment.

JoAnna:

We have leaned on social media so much when we travel that it has disconnected us. A surprising percentage of millennials go places with the intention of documenting their travels, and an even larger percentage share those travels with the intention of creating FOMO and envy with their friends and family. That tells me that social media has ruined travel in a way because it really has taken out the very raw experience of curiosity, awe, humility, and just realness of being in a place for the first time—seeing something new, tasting new flavors, feeling a different kind of ground beneath you, hearing a different language. We're so caught up with how we're going to capture a two-dimensional image of this and share it later.

Angie:

Do you see any positive aspects that social media has had on travel?

JoAnna:

I think it has also created a sense of interest for some people who maybe wouldn't have been interested in traveling before. It has also given small enterprises, local businesses, and local change-makers an opportunity to be discovered by new audiences and people who might not realize that there are different ways to learn about and experience places that we think we know really well because a dominant narrative has really overshadowed what is actually a complex and nuanced place.

So, it's a gift too, but just like anything, in order to fully appreciate that gift, we have to understand how to use it responsibly, how to use it respectfully, and how to wield the power that comes with it in a way that doesn't continue to harm the planet, that doesn't harm the places that we want to visit or the people we're going to interact with and encounter when we do leave home.

Angie:

So, we can't let social media overrun destinations, but it can be a nice tool to help entrepreneurs and smaller locations. It's great to give them that boost, that economic help, but we do it in context, we do it thoughtfully. We think about what we can bring to the destination, not just, “What photos can I take?” and “How can I impress my neighbors when I get home?”

We've heard about some of the environmental and safety impacts that social media has had on travel, local communities, and the physical places themselves. Now, let's talk about how social media has affected our sense of what it means to travel and experience new places. Let's jump into the main course here. B.A., has social media ruined travel?

B.A.:

I'm going to give you an answer that will surprise you, I don't think it has, no. I'm generally a bit negative on social media. I think that it has a deleterious effect on the human psyche, but I don't think that it really has ruined travel. I think that it's changed the way people travel to be sure, but the general patterns in which people engage with the outside world kind of remain the same. We still have a yearning as humans to go places, do things, see people, meet people, and eat things. I think that social media has added a “keep up with the Joneses” aspect to travel, that is the real change. Because fundamentally, if you went back 100 years, you'd have wealthy people doing the Grand Tour and 50 years ago, you'd have mom and pop in their sedan driving the kids around. People were still traveling and they were finding ways to engage with the larger world, how they're doing that has changed.

Angie:

And how they share it with others, like you said, keeping up with the Joneses.

B.A.:

Yeah, I have an aunt who traveled a lot when I was younger and we were always subjected to these slideshows where we'd have to watch the Kodak carousel of hundreds of pictures of whatever my aunt was doing in Monument Valley for hours, held captive to it. We no longer do that. Instead, now we're held captive to a phone where they're beamed into us directly.

Angie:

Do you feel like social media has been beneficial to you in your work, in sharing what you do?

B.A.:

My current project is about endangered language speakers who are all over the United States, and they're on TikTok tracking their languages. It makes it a lot easier to find folks. So, in a certain regard, it helps the legwork in preparation. In terms of actually getting the work out there, I tell nuanced stories, which don't necessarily do well for social media. I tell complicated stories about the intricacies of travel, street photography, and daily life. So for me, I don't do the kind of work that gets rewarded with that. I don't see the reward. In fact, I've kind of made a dinosaur because the human hunger has a lot of space for butts and beautiful scenery, perhaps more than it does for nuance and intricacy.

Angie:

Social media is designed for that. There are whole Instagram accounts that collect all these exact same shots, girl looking into the distance, girl looking into the distance, it's that kind of recycled thing that we see a lot. How have the most popular destinations been affected by suddenly becoming Instagram hotspots?

B.A.:

Fundamentally, you've always had Instagram hotspots. Long before there was ever Instagram, there were still giant crowds at the Eiffel Tower. There were always people making the same pictures. Here are the pyramids of Egypt—ignoring the giant cacophonous sprawl of Cairo right behind them that you hide. We've always had that sort of disingenuous storytelling, and these are the spots that you go to. I think that it's challenging only because it becomes a requirement, right? If you are traveling, you need to make this picture so you can fulfill the obligation of your travel to social media.

Angie:

How do you think that affects the human psyche and people's experiences as they travel?

B.A.:

You know what that endorphin hit feels like when you get thousands of likes on something. You also know that you get crushed a little bit when something falls flat. There's this drug-like aspect to it that does become addictive. Well, I got to make the Instagram post. I got to make the TikTok post. I got to just watch TikToks all day long and learn about what's going on in the world around me.

That becomes a drug-like aspect, but in terms of travel, the cost of it—you and I travel similarly, so you know this—they miss out on the other endorphin kick. They miss going into a little divey bar in Singapore and chatting with a stranger. They miss meeting people because they're losing that social component, which is actually the deeper core addition. The travel adds to us. You meet people, you experience other lives, and when you're focused on, “I need to get a picture of my perfect butt in front of the Grand Canyon,” you miss all the people in awe at the Grand Canyon. You miss the little schlocky tourist shops that have been there since man ate dinosaurs on the way to the Grand Canyon. You miss the people working at the diner on the way to the Grand Canyon. Most importantly, you miss any real memory of the Grand Canyon. All you have is a photograph. I say this as a person who makes photographs for a living, photographs aren't enough. You need the memory, too.

Angie:

There's a big difference between how I travel for work and how I travel for myself. The things I take photos of, the way I frame things. I've got probably 60,000 photos in my camera roll and they're wildly different just based on if it's a work project or not. For a work project, the whole point is to get eyeballs on it, so you have to play the game of social media.

B.A.:

Being a travel photographer is about the most boring job in the world. You'll go somewhere, you'll find this exact spot, and you'll sit there for hours and hours waiting for the light to hit just right, waiting for the light to be perfect, for the perfect moment to happen, for some decisive thing to occur.

I've been to 102 countries. All the travel portfolios that I've done, they're not what's on my walls. They're not the pictures I think of when I think of my own work. When I think of my own actual work, it's always these little moments. It's the things that when I post on my social media, no one cares about: here are 2 people in love in Dublin, here's this dilapidated general store that I liked in Alaska. These things are more personally appealing, but don't really get that sort of engagement.

When I announce that I have a book coming out, I get thousands of likes. The new endorphins, hooray, whatever. When I post some picture I really, really love, it gets 9 likes, no engagement, and doesn't get that reward. It doesn't bother me particularly because that's not really the driving force in my life, but I certainly notice it. I absolutely notice it.

Angie:

This feeling really ties into what you mentioned earlier about how social media can negatively affect our mental health, and perhaps there's no space where that's more true than in the travel world.

B.A.:

I think everyone feels like everyone they see and know is constantly traveling. And it’s sort of this mimetic thing about how do these people afford this? This kind of lifestyle? No. 1, no, they're in debt like everyone else. But no. 2, it presents this very false view of our lives. No one's in the office, nobody's at the doctor. It's just, “Oh, I'm being beautiful in Greece,” which further perpetuates this sort of “keeping up with the Joneses” thing, right?

Everybody has to constantly work so hard to not feel inadequate, when in reality everybody is fighting a great battle, but nobody is posting about it. Because of social media, being normal has now become this weird deficit that we have in our lives. I ended up hospitalized, the whole thing; can't mention that on social media, that's a normal person thing to do. I can go to Alaska for 2 weeks; I can post about that a lot, that you can post about. That's an extraordinary thing to do. Everything is part of your life, it’s just that we're all being forced to become editors, perhaps.

Angie:

Curators of our own life experience. We're all kind of getting forced into the canyon of having the same experience. I guess that's sort of the idea of social media ruining travel. It's not ruining it, but it's changing it, and it's making it look like everyone's life is a bit different than it is. I have 2 separate accounts for that specific reason. I have Angie away and Angie at home, Angie at home is all dog pictures.

B.A.:

There's also a homogenizing aspect to it. On Instagram, you see something works, you do it more and more and more, but it comes at the expense of something. It comes at the expense of broader experience. You don't get these beautiful experiences of failing into success.

Angie:

I think for anything in life—whether it's travel or a big life event—like your wedding day, for example, the things we remember the most seem to be from those failing-into-success moments. Do you think social media is actually robbing us of source material for future storytelling and maybe even happiness?

B.A.:

I think there was a time when people were probably a little happier with their travel than they are now. There was a time when you got the chance to get lost in Venice and not have the GPS tell you exactly how to get to the exact spot that you saw on TikTok that you want to go to. I think that that is a big loss. The chance to have that experience that is only yours, to have this thing that is only yours is a real challenge.

The last trip I took that was truly unaffected by social media, I went to Mongolia to teach a workshop. There's not really a lot of Instagram in outer Mongolia, and it was so wonderful because we had no idea what was going on, where we were going, what we were doing, who we were going to meet, what we were going to eat, nothing. It was just stumbling around and it was wonderful because none of it was manufactured.

Angie:

How would you suggest people get that better experience that we used to have? How do you avoid falling into the trap?

B.A.:

I think there's a really great space for sharing your travel. I think that my aunt 20 years ago was enriched by showing us a carousel of slides. I think showing your travel is great. I think the time for Instagram and TikTok is after you've made the trip and not before.

Angie:

That is such good advice. I think if anyone out there has felt the pressure of social media encroaching on their travel experience, B.A.'s advice to take pictures now and save the posting for later is a good way to go.

And as JoAnna said earlier in the show, remember your why. Why do I want to go here? What am I hoping to get out of this experience? And doing that in a way that respects the local environment and the people. This is how we can reclaim our travel experiences by allowing them to be imperfect, embracing those bumps in the road, and doing our best to save the technology for later.

JoAnna Haugen and B.A. Van Sise, thank you for joining us, and thank you our listeners for being with us. If you're planning a trip, be sure to connect with a AAA Travel Advisor, check out AAA.com/travel, or visit your local branch. If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe. I'm Angie Orth, thank you for traveling with AAA.